Cycling Question

[DBFish]

Hello All,
I'm new here and haven't had a fish tank in decades. I setup my tank about 20 days ago, doing a fishless cycle. I am dosing with ammonia from Dr. Tim's and adding Fritz Turbo Start 700. For the last week, my tests all come out identically. 1 to 2 ppm Ammonia, zero nitrites, and increasing nitrates now at 20ppm. My PH has stayed constant at 7.4. My KH and GH on test strips had been really low (almost non-existent). I did add some baking soda about a week ago to get my KH up, which worked and had no impact at all on my PH (which surprised me). My KH is now reading 40ppm and my GH is 30ppm, those haven't changed in a week either. My concern is the Ammonia. It seems I can dose to 3ppm ammonia at night, next day back at 1ppm ammonia and nitrites stay zero, nitrates increase slightly. From my understanding of the cycle the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates take longer to form and will be slower to build, but they seem to be working fine. The nitrifying bacteria that changes ammonia to nitrites can't seem to keep up or ever eliminate the ammonia in my tank. I'll also mention, I now have diatoms (brown algae) all over the gravel and plants, which I am wiping off slowly. I want to do a ~20% water change to help clean out the loose algae after I brush it off, but am afraid of disrupting the cycling process.

For reference, 65 gallon tank (36X18X24) with aquaclear 110 running with foam, filter floss and double the biomax media... no chemical filtration right now. Someone told me that I should shove a cuttlebone in the filter to help balance the KH, haven't done that yet. Pic for reference is from before the brown algae showed up.

 

[Aiken Drum]

A water change won't effect your cycle at all. The microbes you are trying to grow doesn't live in the water. They live on surfaces, such as your substrate, your aquascape, the glass your aquarium is made from. But mostly they on your filter media in your filtration. If you are doing a fishless cycle though, the algae is just unsightly. It doesn't really need removing.

Wiping off your diatoms and algae might slow your cycle a little because you will also be dislodging those microbes along with the diatoms. Its probably negligible though.

I would stop redosing ammonia until you are seeing zero ammonia. See how long it takes to cycle out completely.

Adding cuttlebone won't do very much unless your water is acidic. It simply won't disolve.

 

[DBFish]

Ok, I can stop and wait... I did wait 5 days and the ammonia level didn't change... then I dosed it up to 3ppm, next day back at 1ppm... It just seems to sit at 1ppm and stop. I tested my tap water and it is zero ammonia.

 

[Andy Sager]

A couple of possibilities for why you are not seeing nitrites: 1) The Turbo 700 had more microbes that convert nitrite to nitrate than the one that converts ammonia to nitrite. 2) the water parameters are more to the liking of the microbes that convert nitrite to nitrate than the one that converts ammonia to nitrite. The fact that you are seeing an increase in nitrates says that those microbes are there and working ( unless you have nitrates in your source water which would mean you are adding nitrates whenever you add some water for a water change or evaporation. ) Your KH is a bit low still at 40 PPM so that could account for the slow ammonia reduction. I would raise it to at least 70 PPM -100 PPM then see how fast the ammonia gets reduced.

When you use starters like Fritzyme or Turbostart or any bottled bacteria, this " From my understanding of the cycle the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates take longer to form and will be slower to build, " does not apply. It only applies when you are starting from scratch with no microbes present at all from the start. Turbostart has both types of microbes in the solution so they didn't need to form first, they were already there. So you can breathe a little easier now.

This is the nitrogen cycle on a graph. You'll see how nitrites and nitrates are slow starters but then take off once the conditions are right for them.

Hope this helps.

 

[DBFish]

That does help. I didn't realize both microbes were present in the Turbo700, I thought it was only the ammonia to nitrite type. I have ordered a KH test kit that should be more accurate than the strips I was given with the tank, so I'll try to adjust it after I have an accurate reading this weekend. I used a mix it f RO and tap water to setup the aquarium so it may need more minerals.

 

[Andy Sager]

That does help. I didn't realize both microbes were present in the Turbo700, I thought it was only the ammonia to nitrite type. I have ordered a KH test kit that should be more accurate than the strips I was given with the tank, so I'll try to adjust it after I have an accurate reading this weekend. I used a mix it f RO and tap water to setup the aquarium so it may need more minerals.

The only way a company can say that their product enables you to put fish in immediately is to have both microbes or else the fish would die from the nitrites.
Since you did a mix of tap and RO water, why not try adding more tap and less RO to get the KH higher after you get the results from the new test kit? If your tap water is high in KH, use math and make the mixture so that the KH is not as high but you shouldn't need to remineralize the portion of RO water. You won't have to worry about it harming the fish because there are no fish yet.

 

[DBFish]

The only way a company can say that their product enables you to put fish in immediately is to have both microbes or else the fish would die from the nitrites.
Since you did a mix of tap and RO water, why not try adding more tap and less RO to get the KH higher after you get the results from the new test kit? If your tap water is high in KH, use math and make the mixture so that the KH is not as high but you shouldn't need to remineralize the portion of RO water. You won't have to worry about it harming the fish because there are no fish yet.

My tap water is pretty soft too. I'll see how the tests go this weekend when the liquid test kit comes in.

 

[DBFish]

Hi All,
I am not having any luck on this one. It has been 5 days with no change at all, my tests are exactly the same every day... I am not adding anything to the tank in the last 5 days...

Today's readings (same as last several days):
Ammonia - 1ppm
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 20 ppm
PH - 7.4
GH - 9
KH - 6

What do I do to get the ammonia to drop? Should I do a water change? It's been over a month and I feel like the sponge in my filter is due for a cleaning, but had been told not to touch the filter during cycling... Any recommendations as it seems like nothing is happening anymore.

For reference, My source water has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates, PH - 6.8.

 

[Aiken Drum]

It just takes time, you are 4 weeks into what could easily be a 3 month process.

A water change can sometimes help out a stalled cycle by replenishing KH. You are having to dose baking soda to get your KH which suggests your tap water is low on KH so that wouldn't help.

Are the 6 KH and 9 GH parameters in degrees or ppm? There is a massive difference between the two units. 6 dKH is 107ppm KH.

By all means do a water change, but remember to redose ammonia and you might need to redose baking soda too. I dont expect it to help, but if doing something helps your peace of mind it wont hurt anything either as long as you get the ammonia and KH back up.

We get a lot of traffic on this forum with people struggling to cycle tanks. By far more people have trouble with fishless cycles. They don't understand the process, or expect it to run to an unrealistic timetable. Almost without fail changing to a fish in cycle resolves the problem.

 

[Andy Sager]

One of the up sides of doing a fish in cycle is that you get to watch some fish while the tank cycles. One of the upper sides of using things like Fritzyme or Turbo start is that you get to watch more fish ( safely) while the tank establishes itself. In the end tho, even using products like Fritzyme or Turbo start is that the tank will not be instantly " cycled" but will be closer to fully cycled than if you did nothing and let it all happen naturally. With a natural cycling, the process can take many months ( 3-5 or longer depending on the water parameters ). Cycling a tank is a patience game. The only way you can really rush the whole process is to use the filter material from an established running aquarium. Doing that will give you however many microbes are there for the amount of life that was in that tank it came from. Using only part of the filter material will only be like an inoculation so the microbes would need to reproduce until they reach a point that there are enough of them to handle the ammonia load in the new aquarium so that is not instantly cycling the new tank.

With all that said, you have another option:
Since your tap water has a Ph of 6.8, the ammonia would be naturally converted to less toxic ammonium and it takes 13-15 PPM of total ammonia for the ammonium to be toxic to the fish in a tank that is 78-79 degrees. ( ammonia gets more toxic in higher temps.) And if the Ph falls below 5.0, nitrification stops entirely so water quality all depends on you and water changes. Also, with the Ph under 7.0, the nitrification process is slowed but with the ammonium, it doesn't really matter since it's not hurting the fish. So if you were to switch to a fish in cycle, I'd use only fish that can live in lower Ph soft water and do not add anything to raise the GH, KH or Ph. Do smaller routine water changes weekly to keep the Ph more stable and remove any detritus which will acidify the water faster.

In the end, your choices are 1) being vigilant on maintenance and a reduced number of species you can do safely or 2) have patience and let things work out as they will over time. The choice is yours.
Here's a way to help you decide which way to go: what kind(s) of fish were you planning on keeping? Do they match the soft water low Ph of your tap water or the raised Ph and GH of your adjusted water?

 

[DBFish]

How would I manage to switch to a fish in cycle if there is already ammonia in the tank that hasn't reduced?

 

[Aiken Drum]

100% water change.

 

[DBFish]

One of the up sides of doing a fish in cycle is that you get to watch some fish while the tank cycles. One of the upper sides of using things like Fritzyme or Turbo start is that you get to watch more fish ( safely) while the tank establishes itself. In the end tho, even using products like Fritzyme or Turbo start is that the tank will not be instantly " cycled" but will be closer to fully cycled than if you did nothing and let it all happen naturally. With a natural cycling, the process can take many months ( 3-5 or longer depending on the water parameters ). Cycling a tank is a patience game. The only way you can really rush the whole process is to use the filter material from an established running aquarium. Doing that will give you however many microbes are there for the amount of life that was in that tank it came from. Using only part of the filter material will only be like an inoculation so the microbes would need to reproduce until they reach a point that there are enough of them to handle the ammonia load in the new aquarium so that is not instantly cycling the new tank.

With all that said, you have another option:
Since your tap water has a Ph of 6.8, the ammonia would be naturally converted to less toxic ammonium and it takes 13-15 PPM of total ammonia for the ammonium to be toxic to the fish in a tank that is 78-79 degrees. ( ammonia gets more toxic in higher temps.) And if the Ph falls below 5.0, nitrification stops entirely so water quality all depends on you and water changes. Also, with the Ph under 7.0, the nitrification process is slowed but with the ammonium, it doesn't really matter since it's not hurting the fish. So if you were to switch to a fish in cycle, I'd use only fish that can live in lower Ph soft water and do not add anything to raise the GH, KH or Ph. Do smaller routine water changes weekly to keep the Ph more stable and remove any detritus which will acidify the water faster.

In the end, your choices are 1) being vigilant on maintenance and a reduced number of species you can do safely or 2) have patience and let things work out as they will over time. The choice is yours.
Here's a way to help you decide which way to go: what kind(s) of fish were you planning on keeping? Do they match the soft water low Ph of your tap water or the raised Ph and GH of your adjusted water?

To answer your question on fish we plan... I am thinking some combination of some (not necessarily all) corydoras, guppies, bristlenose pleco, harlequin rasboras, or maybe a couple apistos or honey gouramis.

***Edit*** - forgot to mention, I have been using Turbo Start 700 throughout this fishless cycle so far, just haven't added any additional in about a week.

 

[DBFish]

100% water change.

easy enough.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Do you know how to do a fish in cycle?

Fish In Cycle Guide.

STAGE 1 – SET UP AND PREPARATION. Set up the aquarium, stand, filtration, lighting, heater if required and any other equipment. Fill the tank and run for 24 hours to ensure there are no leaks and that all the equipment functions correctly. Drain the tank. Aquascape including substrate...

www.aquariumadvice.com

 

[DBFish]

Do you know how to do a fish in cycle?

Fish In Cycle Guide.

STAGE 1 – SET UP AND PREPARATION. Set up the aquarium, stand, filtration, lighting, heater if required and any other equipment. Fill the tank and run for 24 hours to ensure there are no leaks and that all the equipment functions correctly. Drain the tank. Aquascape including substrate...

www.aquariumadvice.com

I read about it when I was deciding between a fish in and fishless. I did a fish in cycle many years ago as a late teen/young adult in a 20 gallon, but I would read up on it more fully before actually starting it.
***Edit*** - That post you linked is awesome! Thanks for the great info.

 

[Andy Sager]

To answer your question on fish we plan... I am thinking some combination of some (not necessarily all) corydoras, guppies, bristlenose pleco, harlequin rasboras, or maybe a couple apistos or honey gouramis.

So that's a mix of higher PH and lower Ph fish ( and not really a good combination. )

 

[DBFish]

I just wanted to say that this afternoon I tested and my ammonia was down to 0.25ppm, nitrites still zero and nitrates went up, but not all the way to 40 which is the next color on the chart. I think I am going to just ride this out another week or two and see if it cycles. I don't want to risk changing to a fish in cycle if things are moving again. Seeing the ammonia drop for the first time in long time makes me think that maybe it's getting closer. Thanks for all the advice! I'll let you know where I am at in a week or so.