Massive overnight die off in African Cichlid tank

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Jacky12

Aquarium Advice FINatic
Joined
Sep 26, 2021
Messages
728
Location
USA
This morning I found ~15 out of ~20 cichlids dead in a 125 G tank. All ate well as always during yesterday’s feeding The tank has a cycled FX6 filter. This group has been together for about three years. No new fish have been added other than a few that were bred in the tank that managed to escape being eaten. I don’t keep live plants in that tank either. Nothing whatsoever new was added. There are no visible signs of disease. Their air pumps were on & the temperature is as always, around 75F. I did a 50% water change on Saturday, three days ago. Now I cannot say for 100% that I treated the water with API tapwater conditioner, but I seldom, if ever, forget and can’t accurately say if this is a possibility. If so, would it have caused this massive die off three days after the water change? Any other theories? I am heartbroken.
The ammonia is high at 1.0 ppm. It has never been so high & I suspect the deaths spiked it. Nitrites at 0. Nitrates higher than usual at 40 ppm.
 
If you can eliminate not using the water conditioner or that the conditioner wasn't expired, all your symptoms point towards the problem being the food. It may have been contaminated. I had a similar issue with some pleco food. The fish had eaten the same food for some time but the day after I had opened a new bucket of the same algae disks and fed them, I lost the whole tank.

If you did not use the conditioner, the fish were exposed to chlorine or chloramine which would have damaged their gills causing a slower uptake of oxygen causing a delayed death. In reality tho, this should have happened to all the fish not just 15 unless the survivors were large fish that should still appear to be suffering. Sadly, gill damage is rarely reversible.

The last thing to check is if your water company did any pipe cleaning with a larger than usual amount of chemical on Fri or Sat. When water companies do pipe flushings, they use a much higher amount of chemical that it can take triple or more the dosage of conditioner to counter. You can eliminate this possibility tho if you did water changes in any of your other tanks with no issues. ( They should be checked as well if you did change water in more tanks. )
 
I have 16 fish tanks. Not all are fed the same food, or combination of foods. But 9 tanks had exactly the same flakes. The expiration date is 11/26. All fish in other tanks, as well as the 5 survivors, appear fine.
Yes, I did water changes in all tanks, some the same day & some the following day.

Is there a possibility one of the two heaters that seem good could have malfunctioned & electrocuted them? Yet 5 lived. Due to warm ambient weather, the heaters haven’t been on much. There is not a significant size difference among the dead & living fish.

Should I be concerned that in doing a 75% water change today with my DIY 3/4” hosing system, that it may now contain a pathogen that would affect other tanks? It would be an expensive hassle to replace.

I’m so stumped, Andy.
 
I threw away that bucket of flakes. Is it too much of a stretch to theorize a clump was toxic?
 
I have 16 fish tanks. Not all are fed the same food, or combination of foods. But 9 tanks had exactly the same flakes. The expiration date is 11/26. All fish in other tanks, as well as the 5 survivors, appear fine.
Yes, I did water changes in all tanks, some the same day & some the following day.

Is there a possibility one of the two heaters that seem good could have malfunctioned & electrocuted them? Yet 5 lived. Due to warm ambient weather, the heaters haven’t been on much. There is not a significant size difference among the dead & living fish.

Should I be concerned that in doing a 75% water change today with my DIY 3/4” hosing system, that it may now contain a pathogen that would affect other tanks? It would be an expensive hassle to replace.

I’m so stumped, Andy.
It's not likely for fish to get electrocuted unless they actually touch the metal inside the heater. Fish aren't grounded so there would need to be an intense electrical current that would have shocked you when you touched the tank for them to be electrocuted. So you can discount that. If the 5 remaining fish looked fine when you saw the 15 dead, you can pretty much discount disease as the cause. As for the food, it didn't have to be expired to be contaminated. If you fed flakes that say, had been clumped together, whatever was causing them to clump could have been the source of the contamination. If an aerosol got onto the flakes just prior to being fed, they would be contaminated even if they had not expired. It's tough to say without them being analyzed professionally. Same with the fish without an autopsy or 5. It IS unusual to have the majority of a tank expire for no apparent reason. There is always a reason.

Did you test the tank's water just prior to doing the water change? If the water parameters were drastically different than the new water, doing a 50% water change could have been too much of a change too fast for those 15 fish. This has long been the argument against massive water changes versus smaller ones more frequently. Overall, fish do not like change that happens quickly. Of course there are exceptions to this but on average, large water changes cause problems that smaller ones would have avoided. For the time being, I would hold off on doing large scale water changes until you compare water parameters in the tanks to the water used for refilling. The more the difference between them, the less water you should change but do changes on a daily basis vs even weekly.

Lastly, did you notice anything odd about the dead fish( gill position, fin deterioration, etc) besides lack of breathing? Were the 5 survivors behaving " normally" even tho the 15 were dead?
 
I only recently became aware of doing smaller water changes vs the weekly 50% I’ve done for the 3 years I’ve been in the hobby. This new information comes from a few Angelfish breeders I am in contact with. I have purchased their fish, and I’m listening to what they have to say regarding water changes. Other methods of single weekly large water change came from African Cichlid type people in my early fish forum days.

I was advised today to do a 75% change today and the tank where all the fish died , not from one of these Angelfish breeders but from a well respected person in a large forum. Of course that change was already in progress when his message came in. For the three years that I have focused on these African reflex cichlids, I’ve gone with the big changes and have not tested the water prior to a change. in fact, the readings were so stable over time that I came to do them less and less frequently. The tanks were established, and there was no reason for these parameters to suddenly jump.

Obviously, something happened last night. All fish looked good when they had their end of the day meal. The survivors continue to look good and are active and eating. I believe only a necropsy could determine the precise cause of death. It had to be something and I am grasping and struggling.

Tell me if you agree with this, or maybe you already told me, I am so rattled and confused now that I don’t even want to go back and reread everything. I’m being told by one of my advisers that is not likely a contagious condition. I was terribly worried that my nice water exchange system had become contaminated, but this highly experienced person does not think so. He thinks the most probable cause was low oxygen in the tank. I had two small stones one at each end. Today, after the event, I replaced both with much larger air stones. They are quite massive and heavy. I’m going to order more.

Yes, the food could have somehow became contaminated. As soon as you mentioned that prospect, I threw the big bucket of it away. It was almost empty, and I have another.
 
I only recently became aware of doing smaller water changes vs the weekly 50% I’ve done for the 3 years I’ve been in the hobby. This new information comes from a few Angelfish breeders I am in contact with. I have purchased their fish, and I’m listening to what they have to say regarding water changes. Other methods of single weekly large water change came from African Cichlid type people in my early fish forum days. Different fish have different tolerances so what might work for some may not work for others. It sounds like you suffered from TMI ( Too Much Information) from too many sources. Sadly, with the lack of good Mom & Pop shops these days, there are many people/ experts online who give advice based on limited experiences so it becomes harder to know who to listen to. I've always been a big supporter of "The best information is local information." Sadly, that's not always available.

I was advised today to do a 75% change today and the tank where all the fish died , not from one of these Angelfish breeders but from a well respected person in a large forum. Of course that change was already in progress when his message came in. For the three years that I have focused on these African reflex cichlids, I’ve gone with the big changes and have not tested the water prior to a change. in fact, the readings were so stable over time that I came to do them less and less frequently. The tanks were established, and there was no reason for these parameters to suddenly jump. This is a great example of why you shouldn't change your routine just because the tank and fish are older. An established tank does not mean it's a healthy tank. There is even something called " Old tank syndrome" that happens when the tank water gets old and with a reduction in water changes, nitrates get high as does phosphate level, KH gets lower and Ph drops. You can't see these things with the naked eye, you only see them with tests. Then you do a massive water change and the Ph jumps up which causes shock in the fish. ( I'm not saying this was the only cause but could be a contributing factor. )

Obviously, something happened last night. All fish looked good when they had their end of the day meal. The survivors continue to look good and are active and eating. I believe only a necropsy could determine the precise cause of death. It had to be something and I am grasping and struggling. I agree, we are only going to be guessing at possible causes while only an autopsy can definitively tell you what happened ( unless you have a video of the tank that was running overnight so you can see what happened and when it happened. )

Tell me if you agree with this, or maybe you already told me, I am so rattled and confused now that I don’t even want to go back and reread everything. I’m being told by one of my advisers that is not likely a contagious condition. I was terribly worried that my nice water exchange system had become contaminated, but this highly experienced person does not think so. He thinks the most probable cause was low oxygen in the tank. I had two small stones one at each end. Today, after the event, I replaced both with much larger air stones. They are quite massive and heavy. I’m going to order more. Yes, I do not think this was disease that killed the fish. If the cause was low oxygen, the fish would have died with their gills flared open. If they didn't, it wasn't because of low oxygen. You need to be careful with air stones. You can over saturate the water with oxygen. They do make " dissolved oxygen" test kits if you are concerned that you do not have enough aeration. Too much oxygen can cause bubbles to form in a fish's skin and around their eyes, which can lead to gas bubble disease. This condition is rarely curable so should be prevented more than thought of as curable.

Yes, the food could have somehow became contaminated. As soon as you mentioned that prospect, I threw the big bucket of it away. It was almost empty, and I have another. If other fish were eating the same foods, it may not have been the whole container. It just seemed to be the one common denominator to all the fish if it wasn't the water.
The reality of large water changes is it's like playing Russian Roulette. It works when the water parameters of the tank water and the new water are close to each other but can be a disaster when they are too different. You won't know by looking at the water whether the parameters are close or not. You find that out by testing. Yes, I know, I've read the " experts" say they don't test water anymore because they have been doing fish for years. What they probably didn't mention is that they do consistent water changes on a regular basis or have other chemical filtration systems so there is not really a chance for any parameter to get to a bad or deadly level. In my hatchery, the fry tanks got water changes 4 times per day. The breeders got water changes 2 times per week. The only time I ever tested the water was when the tanks were first set up. With a water change schedule like this, it's pretty hard to foul the water unless they tanks are over fed. In my home tanks, they got water changed once or twice a week depending on the fish load. This was what my Mentor taught me and I have been doing it for now 60 years with the same results over the years. I'm not saying everybody needs to do their fish tanks this way but that this is what works for me and so far, nobody I have counseled or mentored has had a different result when they followed the schedule. There is a movement in the hobby for keeping fish without doing water changes. I have never agreed with it. I understand that it's not always convenient or it can be costly if you have multiple tanks but the reality is that when you don't do water changes, the fish suffer. It can be by not growing to their full potential size. It can be that they suffer from vitamin or mineral deficiencies. It could be that they suffer from a shortened lifespan. The list goes on. I look at water changes this way: NO FISH in nature survives without new water so why deprive them of new water in an aquarium?

Just some things to think about. :unsure:
 
thanks for your reply. I need time to process all this.
BTW, you, Andy, are a big part of TMI.
 
That's because you asked a lot of questions that didn't have one single answer.

Thanks again for the TMI. BTW, there is no such thing as TMI in this context. A scientific mind (PhD biology) such as mine must search long and hard for solutions to unusual situations.
 
Thanks again for the TMI. BTW, there is no such thing as TMI in this context. A scientific mind (PhD biology) such as mine must search long and hard for solutions to unusual situations.
I should have clarified, too many information sources. I'm sure you've heard of the quote" Too many cooks spoil the broth." well that goes for fish keeping as well. I've watched ( and stopped watching btw) many "online experts" and found many of them to give information that does not apply everywhere and they don't say that in their videos. I recall often thinking to myself " That didn't work in S. Florida." or " That won't work if the fish is a wild fish." I knew those things were or weren't true because I either did them or tried them or learned why they don't work everywhere. This is why there are so many ways to keep fish because it's all based on the water and the fish and all water is not the same and wild caught fish are different from farm raised fish so there can't be a universal " one size fits all" answer to all questions. :unsure:
 
Back
Top Bottom