New pair of adult Sao Gabriel not eating

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Jacky12

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These fish arrived a week ago. They are not a proven pair & I an unconcerned with their genders. I have never known new arrivals to refuse food for more than a day or two. I have offered them what the breeder fed: brine shrimps, blood worms & pellets.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
Done. I have purchased several scalare from this breeder who has a significantly lower pH than mine & slowly acclimated them. 4 very young adults or pre-adult Guyana came in the same order. Doing great. Housed separately from larger SG pair.

My new profile pic is one his Manacapuru. ~7 months old.
 
Done. I have purchased several scalare from this breeder who has a significantly lower pH than mine & slowly acclimated them. 4 very young adults or pre-adult Guyana came in the same order. Doing great. Housed separately from larger SG pair.

My new profile pic is one his Manacapuru. ~7 months old.
If these were wild caught fish, you need to match the water chemistry of the river. If these were tank raised, you need to match the water from the breeder. It doesn't matter that you've been able to acclimate other fish because fish are all different. PLUS, the older the fish are, the more they respond better to being in one water parameter. Only the domestic Angels really adapt to almost any water conditions. With the Manacapuru, they need very clean water to do well and very soft water to show their best colors. If this was just 2 fish, they may just not be comfortable yet but if these were a mated pair, they are probably an older pair so you should really look at matching the water parameters that the breeder was keeping them in.
 
Tank bred. Not mated. From same guy who bred my Manacapuru and Guyana. Parameters matched, except his TDS is a bit higher. His current theory is that a 14 G cube is too small for quarantine, given they were in a 75, with many fish. I moved them to a 20 G hi. This would be for QT only. The breeder & I seem to define quarantine differently.
 
Tank bred. Not mated. From same guy who bred my Manacapuru and Guyana. Parameters matched, except his TDS is a bit higher. His current theory is that a 14 G cube is too small for quarantine, given they were in a 75, with many fish. I moved them to a 20 G hi. This would be for QT only. The breeder & I seem to define quarantine differently.
All depends on the dimensions of the 14 gal but a larger fish coming from a larger tank will not always do well in a smaller tank no matter what your reason for putting it in there is.
 
Andy, this is what Dieter told me, email, on the subject of ammonia poisoning. The breeder says the dorsal damage was caused by stress.
Do you think this stress theory is possible? At present, I am not treating. Would you? The medication mentions is not available in the US. I think it may be similar to KanaPlex.

“Ammonia poisoning can only happen in the transport bag if the pH value is above 7.5. However, this is not possible because the fish exhales carbon dioxide, which forms carbonic acid in the water. Normally, the pH value in the bag is below 7 and the ammonia is present as harmless ammonium. Even high concentration with more than 100 mg of ammium do not poison the fish, when pH is below 7.
I think the fish has an infection of bacteria or Ichthyobodo necator. Apply a bath with sera omnipur over 7 days.”

Best regards
dieter UNtergasser
 
The problem with ammonia poisoning doesnt happen in the closed bag, it happens when you open the bag. The CO2 offgases, rapidly increasing the pH. Non toxic ammonium turns into toxic free ammonia. If your fish has been in the bag for an extended period ammonia poisoning is definitely a possibilty.

If you are drip acclimating you need to get something like Prime in the water ASAP to detoxify the ammonia. If you are just temperature acclimating then do that with the bag closed, and once its open get the fish out of the bag ASAP to reduce the time in the now toxic water. I open the bag and straight away pour the contents into a net. The fish get caught and the water is disposed of.
 
The fish was shipped overnight and released from the bag immediately, however, I would not know how long the breeder had it there. His theory is stress. Do you think that is at all possible? The condition remains unchanged, and I am reluctant to treat. I see no infection only a damaged dorsal..IMG_6340.jpeg
 
If the fish wasn't in the bag water for long after you opened the bag (a few seconds?) then i agree ammonia poisoning isn't likely. But then then with no acclimation to your water parameters you bring shock and stress into the equation.
 
I did a day long acclimation, mostly focused on pH. Other parameters similar.
 
I may have misspoken. The water the fish arrived in was placed in a larger container. Per procedure used by Gabe Posada, small amounts of my tank water were added every 15 minutes. It is a form of drip acclimation which can be viewed on Gabe’s YouTube video. I actually transferred the fish by hand, rather than netting them, to the new tank.
They are currently eating well in a 75 G.
 
Then ammonia poisoning is definitely on the table.

Your breeder is correct in what they said up to the point where the bag is opened and exposed to the atmosphere. While in the bag CO2 from the fishes respiration cant escape into the atmosphere, so it stays in the water forming carbonic acid, which acidifies the water. Ammonia in acidic water is non toxic ammonium. This is really where the shippers responsibility ends.

But as per my post, the moment you open the bag and expose it to the atmosphere the water chemistry changes. The carbonic acid returns to CO2, the CO2 off gases into the atmosphere and the pH rapidly rises. If it rises enough, then the non toxic ammonium turns to toxic free ammonia and the fish are then kept in that free ammonia until your acclimating ends and the fish are transferred to clean water in your aquarium. The amount of ammonia that builds up will depend on how long they where in the bag, and toxicity of free ammonia is temperature and pH dependant so there isnt a one size fits all situation. But use of something like Prime or Ammo Lock to detoxify ammonia during a lengthy acclimation process gives your fish some protection in case ammonia does get to toxic levels. In your case the fish will have been in with the ammonia for the day long timeframe.
 
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Andy, this is what Dieter told me, email, on the subject of ammonia poisoning. The breeder says the dorsal damage was caused by stress.
Do you think this stress theory is possible? At present, I am not treating. Would you? The medication mentions is not available in the US. I think it may be similar to KanaPlex.

“Ammonia poisoning can only happen in the transport bag if the pH value is above 7.5. However, this is not possible because the fish exhales carbon dioxide, which forms carbonic acid in the water. Normally, the pH value in the bag is below 7 and the ammonia is present as harmless ammonium. Even high concentration with more than 100 mg of ammium do not poison the fish, when pH is below 7.
I think the fish has an infection of bacteria or Ichthyobodo necator. Apply a bath with sera omnipur over 7 days.”

Best regards
dieter UNtergasser
For starters, the Omnipur is not the same as Kanaplex. Kanamycin is solely an antibiotic while the omnipur is an antibiotic/antifungal/antiparasitic medication. ( The Europeans use different meds than we do. )

As for the ammonia poisoning in the bag, both Aiken and Dieter are correct. The problem comes when you open the bag and aerate the water. Just opening the bag does not raise the pH but once you start aerating the water, the pH can rise quickly and the ammonium converts to toxic ammonia and the fish is sitting in it and depending on how much ammonia is in the water, could be getting burned or suffer gill damage. What you need to do is have water pre-made with similar parameters to what is in the bag regarding pH & hardness so that once you open the bag, you remove the fish from the low pH /ammonium filled water to your low pH /no ammonium water and THEN acclimate the fish to your higher pH. ( In your case, you'll want to soften your water to match what the fish is coming from. Fish handle going from hard water to soft water quickly better than going from soft water to hard water quickly. )

As for the cause of the damage, that could have been caused by a net used to catch the fish or from being in the 14 gal with the dorsal extending outside of the water but either way or however it happened, that does leave the fish open to infection. You can take a " wait and see" approach or use a medication approach. If you take a " wait and see" approach, I would use a product that adds body slime to the water to help coat the area to try and keep it from getting infected. ( I don't recall if you use PRIME or SAFE but SAFE is not the same as PRIME in that it does not have the slime properties that PRIME does. ) If you go medication, Kanaplex will only really work in water with a pH over 7.0. If yours is under 7.0, I'd use either nitrofurazone or triple sulpha. You will need to watch for fungal infection. Fritz makes a good antifungal ( Expel-F ) which many have switched to from Methylene Blue. If the deterioration of the fin continues, you will need to medicate quickly.

I did some checking and I see that Omnipur is available from places overseas via Ebay. It looks expensive but in reality, it may actually be inline considering needing to buy 3 different meds to cover the 3 different situations the one med covers. :unsure:
 
Your explanation does not account for the perfect condition of the other Sao Gabriel, subjected to the same parameters. I’m waiting to hear back from Dieter. It is my firm belief the one under discussion was shipped that way. Speculation as to cause is difficult. One rarely gets straight answers from breeders. The bottom line is it will likely make a full recovery. I’m holding off on meds unless the condition deteriorates.

Yes, I have purchased European dog meds on EBay. They took well over a month to arrive. I'm sure there is a US equivalent to anything they have. I ended up compounding that particular med myself, using three OTC ointments.
 
Your explanation does not account for the perfect condition of the other Sao Gabriel, subjected to the same parameters. I’m waiting to hear back from Dieter. It is my firm belief the one under discussion was shipped that way. Speculation as to cause is difficult. One rarely gets straight answers from breeders. The bottom line is it will likely make a full recovery. I’m holding off on meds unless the condition deteriorates.

Yes, I have purchased European dog meds on EBay. They took well over a month to arrive. I'm sure there is a US equivalent to anything they have. I ended up compounding that particular med myself, using three OTC ointments.
If the fish were shipped in individual bags then you have individual issues so what one fish did in another bag does not apply to all the fish. For example: This one fish may have not evacuated fully before being bagged. This fish may have been chased more before being caught causing it to hyperventilate more once in the bag. Both of these things can result in more ammonia in the bag. If the fish were all shipped in one bag together, THEN you can make comparisons.

As for the Kanaplex picture, it's the only way I know of for getting Kanamycin in the US unless you get pharmaceutical grade Kanamycin from a lab or distributor. For what it's worth, I've not found Kanaplex to be too effective against true fungus on wounds. Here's a hint for you ( and anyone reading this ;) ) regarding what water parameters a medicine will work best in: If the medicine states it works for marine fish as well as freshwater, it will work best in hard alkaline water because that is what saltwater is. A standard pH for marine tanks is 8.0-8.5. If you have an acidic pH, this medicine will not work as well as others that WILL work well in more acidic conditions. Here's a caveat to this however, once you see the brand name, you need to do more research to make sure the ingredient(s) DOES work well in alkaline environments. For example: Furan-2 claims to work for marine fish yet every drug distributor I've worked with said that Nitrofurazone has very little effectiveness in alkaline water. So the issue is not whether nitrofurazone works in alkaline water but if it works well ( or best) in alkaline water and the answer to that is NO, it works much better in acidic environments. This is why we started doing sensitivity cultures when our marine fish weren't responding to Furan-2 treatments. That was eye opening because very few of the conditions were were using it for were responding to nitrofurazone. In one case however, a very expensive fish was saved by Tetracycline which rarely is used on marine fish because it's less effective in saltwater. So you must do your research!!
 
Thank you, invaluable info as to be expected from a professional like you.

Why am I having such difficulty finding wilds, P.scalare? I recently learned the “Rio Nanay” I purchased from an importer are Peruvian fish of some sort, but not the Rio Nanay I wanted. Sorry if I already told you this.
I know a breeder in Philadelphia who has them, but he won’t share his source. Probably wouldn’t matter anyway. Likely to involve high volume orders.
 
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